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Interview with Peter Kelly - 26 April 2000
AC/PD
Sorry we couldn't resist it! [The Title] But then PETER KELLY
is that rare figure in Irish life --- an openly gay mainstream politician. NIALL
STANAGE meets the Cork Progressive Democrat who believes that the liberal agenda
is far from over
FOR A man who was first elected to Cork County Council only
last June, Peter Kelly has wasted no time making a national impression.
The 31-year-old Progressive Democrat is the prime mover behind
a proposed change to local bye-laws currently being considered by the Department
of Justice. If approved, it would give people, in committed relationships of one
kind or another - whether they are gay, lesbian or heterosexual-but-unmarried -
rights on the housing list similar to those enjoyed by married couples, It would
also make the Council the first state body to recognise gay and lesbian couples.
The proposal also includes provision for people with
disabilities, senior citizens and their carers, and people who share a common
residence. Kelly has won the broad support of his fellow councillors for the
initiative.
The added twist in the tale is that Peter Kelly is that rare
breed in Irish public life - an openly gay politician.
Kelly has lived in Douglas, just outside Cork, all his life.
He works as General Manager of a car dealership in Carrigaline, and first stood
(unsuccessfully) for Cork County Council in 1991. He also stood as a candidate
for the Dail in the by-election which followed the death of Hugh Coveney. He
received only 2% of the votes cast, as Coveney's son, Simon, swept-to victory.
Looking back on that election he says, 'It wouldn't have been
as cut-throat or as ruthless as an ordinary campaign. Hugh Coveney's death was
still fresh in a lot of people's minds. But the reality was that people just
didn't know who I was."
For someone of his relative youth, however, Kelly has more
than his fair share of political battles behind him. He first established his
maverick credentials by supporting Pat Cox in the European Elections of 1992
after Cox had left the PDs to run as an independent. As a result, Kelly was
suspended from the party, though he was soon reinstated after putting his case
to the National Executive.
In person, Kelly is friendly and articulate, but his demeanour
also carries the steeliness of the career politician. Openly ambitious, he
joined the Progressive Democrats in 1986, aged just 17, having gone to their
first meeting in Cork at the request of his aunt. Two things, he says, initially
attracted him to the party: "Firstly, they didn't really have a policy
base, so it was basically up to those who joined to set the agenda. Secondly,
the PDs at the time weren't going to have a youth section. If you had joined
Fianna Fail or Fine Gael you would have been hived off into a youth section for
six or seven years. I wasn't interested in that."
Which seems like as good a place to start as any...
NIALL STANAGE: Did being pitched straight into the real
business of politics stand you in good stead?
PETER KELLY: I suppose so. I was very idealistic at the time.
I remember the first canvass we did in '86 was a huge
eye-opener. In one estate we were having a long chat to the lady of the house,
and this guy pounced down the stairs in a string vest shouting. 'who are ye?'.
We said, 'we're the Progressive Democrats'. And he said to the wife, 'you're not
interested in that shower' and slammed the door. That was the end of that.
Q: What would those idealistic beliefs you mentioned have
been?
A: At 17, most of it would have been kinda social-liberal
stuff. The big issue would have been constitutional reform. I was there the day
we voted God out of the Constitution, and I still believe that we should have a
secular constitution. Legislation needs to be relevant to the society we live
in, and I think the constitution clearly isn't at the moment. The other thing I
had my mind made up on was Northern Ireland. I didn't like the northern policy
of the other parties and I think we had a big contribution to make. We were
debating changing Articles 2 and 3 nearly 15 years ago.
Q: Does the idea of a United Ireland mean anything to you?
A: No. I've never thought it made a whole lot of sense and I
still don't. I think the EU in a lot of ways has made it irrelevant, and that's
a huge step forward.
Q: How much of an effect did the poor PD performance in the
last general election have on the party?
A: Obviously, every party is in great form if they're winning.
But the fact that the two times we've done badly at the polls we've ended up in
government has always been a great consolation. Also, we spent a long time
arguing for the rebuilding of the economy and a lot of that has been achieved.
Q: Doesn't that make it more difficult for the party to appear
distinctive?
A: It does. But the party has been evolving, and it's a
question of what we're evolving into. And I think our task now is to rebuild
society.
Q: Meaning what?
The liberal aspects. I think a lot of people thought that
after we'd torn ourselves apart a couple of times over abortion and Iegalised
divorce, that that was it - that the liberal agenda was suddenly over. I think
there are other issues we have to face, and domestic partnership is one of them.
But there are others.
Q: Do you think there should be another abortion referendum?
A: No. We've been to the polls three times. The last time was
the clearest decision we've had yet In terms of what people voted for. In terms
of the backbench TDs looking for another referendum to copperfasten the ban on
abortion - I don't think that's possible. I've yet to see a wording that would
provide the solution people are looking for. I also think the Constitution is a
wholly inappropriate place for social legislation.
Q: What has been the response to your proposal about housing
rights?
A: Very, very positive. Nobody at Cork County Council level
spoke against the proposal. I've had people support me from all over the
country, saying that it's a wonderful idea and wishing me well with it. I didn't
get any negative reaction - there were no mass bouquets or plastic Jesus's
pushed through my letter box. I was expecting at least one! (laughs]. Ireland
has moved on a bit further than most people suspect.
Q: A lot of the media coverage emphasised the gay issue...
A: I think that's just par for the course. That was primarily
because it was me who was proposing it. OK. it's an important piece of
legislation from a gay rights perspective, but it's also important for many
other people. It's unmarried heterosexual couples who will be the single largest
group to benefit.
Q: How did you come out?
A: I told my very close friends when I was 17. It was
something which had concerned me for a number of years. And it was also very
difficult because I didn't know how I was going to reconcile a career in
politics with being gay. Certainly back in '84/85, the two appeared to be
mutually exclusive. That was the perception. Anyway, in late '85, I told my best
schoolfriends as we left school. I got no negative reaction. It was much, much
later. about '95, that I told my brothers and sisters and then subsequently my
parents. It's obviously a difficult time. For my brothers and sisters, it's
fine. For my parents, it's been difficult...
Q: But you would have been aware of your sexuality before you
were 17.
A: Oh, yes. I suppose I've always been aware of it. But I
would have been 16 or 17 before it really crystallised as a difference -
realising there was a name for it.
Q: Did you have difficulties coming to terms with it?
A: Yes, I would have done. It's not something where you wake
up one morning and say 'oh, fantastic, I'm gay - where's the next Gay Pride on?'
[laughs]. It doesn't really work like that. Society is programming you to go
through school, find a girl, settle down, have children. When I was at school,
there was an enormous amount of pressure to conform to that. You could be
different - you could like different bands, or you could do something different
with your hair, or you could have your ears pierced. But, God, homosexuality
wasn't trendy! It took me a number of years to get my head around it.
Q: Were you bullied?
No. Unfortunately I have no sad stories to tell. I've never
had any negative response, I've never had any hassle. Any time I have gone away
with my partner we have booked a double room and nobody's ever said 'no'.
Q: What's the gay scene like In Cork?
A: Small, compact. It's evolved a lot in the past ten years.
It's reasonably closeknit.
Q: At the council meeting where the proposal was put forward,
an independent councillor, Noel Collins, speaking in support of you, also said,
"None of us is perfect, and we should all remember the phrase, 'there but
for the grace of God go I'."
A: [laughs] Do you want me to comment on that?
Q: The clear suggestion is that people who are not in the
standard married relationship are 'imperfect' ...
A: Well, I wouldn't support that view. But I think what Noel
is getting at there is that none of us, regardless of our situation, is perfect.
And Noel Collins has had a tremendous history in Cork of supporting minorities.
His record on minority issues is exemplary.
Q: Were your fears about trying to carve out a career in
politics as a gay man borne out?
A: No. I've never let my sexuality stop me from doing
anything. I've just ploughed on.
Q: But does it make things more difficult?
A: No. If I had been in another party it might have been
different. I'm in a small, liberal party. A lot of people who joined, joined for
that reason - they came from a liberal ethos. We don't have a conservative core
of the kind some of the other parties would be afflicted with.
Q: What about Mary Harney's famous appearance on The Late Late
Show when she described Howard Marks as "evil"?
A: I've been on record for a number of years saying that the
marijuana issue is something we should examine. I think the policies which we do
have in relation to recreational drugs have failed dismally. The new report that
came out in the UK recently is something we should really look seriously at. The
idea of just saying 'they're bad, they're bad, they're bad' hasn't worked. I
think there is a huge case for legalising marijuana in relation to medical
applications.
Q: Views like that used to be caricatured as hippie rantings,
yet the likes of the UK report you mentioned suggests that they have spread to
the mainstream.
A: You have to look at the generation that's in power in the
UK at the moment - it's the same people who would have been experimenting with
it in the '60s. That would obviously colour their judgements.
Generally, people's minds are more open. They're looking at
the situation in relation to alcohol and tobacco, and are saying, 'both of these
cost a fortune in health issues, what's the difference with marijuana?' And, at
the end of the day, what is the difference? Both alcohol and tobacco are
socially acceptable, but that's about the only difference. There's a good strong
argument that marijuana is a whole lot safer.
Q: Have you ever smoked marijuana yourself?
A: Once. Ever.
Q: And?
A: And it wasn't a particularly pleasant or unpleasant
experience. But there is a huge problem with the criminal aspect to drugs, which
would concern me, as would, obviously, the health factor.
Q: In the case of marijuana, It's illegality just strengthens
the criminal elements, surely?
A: Yes. I would agree. That's exactly what's happening. It's a
bit like the Prohibition years in we have in the States: the Mafia controlled
alcohol at that time. Now, I'm not saying we should have a free-for-all, but I
do think we need to re-evaluate where we're at and what we're doing.
Q: What else does your idea of moving the social agenda
forward involve?
A: We need to broaden the liberal agenda out into, for
instance, the religious and sex education field. I think the programme that's
come in at the moment is good, but it's very little, very late. I'd also like to
see a debate begin on issues like euthanasia. I'm not saying that we should
legislate for it, but I think we should debate it.
Q: How did you meet your partner?
Q: Back then, meeting partners was really very difficult. You
had the personal ads in HOT PRESS and that was about it. That was how I met my
partner nine years ago.
But there was very little in terms of an organised scene. What
there was tended to be very radical and on the fringes. Then you had the whole
illegality thing. OK, It wasn't really enforced, but it was always there to be
thrown at you. You were always conscious of it.
Q: Did the oppressive atmosphere push people into situations?
A: Yeah, it'd be fair to say that. A lot of the scene would
have been remote, distant - sort of nod-and-wink. People meeting other people in
parks, in docks and things like that; in places or scenarios where they would
have been at risk.
Q: Were you ever in those situations?
A: No, thankfully. I wasn't prepared to take those risks.
Q: Immigration, and the proposed flotels, have provoked a lot
of controversy recently. Where do you stand on that?
A: I have visited flotels in Holland, and the Dutch have gone
about it in a very open and pragmatic way. Their flotels are just walk-on,
walk-off; anybody can come and go as they please. I think that's the way to have
them.
If we're going to turn them into prison barges then it would
be outrageous. it would smack of Nazi Germany all over again. Corralling people
into compounds is just not acceptable.
Q: But irrespective of how it's implemented, does the flotel
idea not inevitably carry a negative message?
A: I suppose it does. The biggest problem with them is that
they are a little bit more confined than we would like. But the reality of the
situation is that we are a country of limited resources. Even if people are
naturalised, they aren't necessarily going to stay in whatever accommodation
they have been put into. They are going to want to live elsewhere. Flotels are
only an adequate solution in terms of short term evaluation of asylum seekers
and refugees, where we can make a quick decision. Three months is the maximum we
should be looking at.
Q: Have there been any racist attacks in Cork?
A: There may have been some, but they may not have been
reported. Certainly, no-one has been killed. There doesn't seem to be any kind
of orchestrated 'Keep Ireland Pure' brigade. There's no sign of the Ku Klux
Klan.
Q: Perhaps no KKK, but what about Aine Ni Chonaill's views?
A: I would disagree fundamentally with them. For years we were
the immigrants. It wasn't easy. but by and large we were welcomed and given
opportunity. I think we should afford the same opportunity to people who come
here.
Q: Finally, will you be standing at the next general election?
A: Assuming I can get through convention, that's what I want
to do. I've made no secret of the fact that I want to pursue what I can do at a
national level. The nice thing about a small party is that it's difficult to
make it, but when you do make it, you can have a very real impact.
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